Shipbucket

Garlic, I found many majors mistakes in your Joffre 1945 design
(mainly around AA guns & island/bridge)

Colombamike wrote:
Garlic, I found many majors mistakes in your Joffre 1945 design
(mainly around AA guns & island/bridge)
-SNIP-

Your images are not correct. Plans released by the French Ministère de la Défense in 2009 back up Garlic's interpetation.

And I found that site with one whole minute of googling. You should try that, it might save you future embarrassment.

Garlic, this is excellent work.

Hello again

OK, no reason to get heated, you're both right. The source presented by Colombamike was unknown to me when I made the 1945 version and likely represents a plan to build the Joffre after the war ended. My version assumes the ship was actually built to the original plans and finished sometime in 1944 and then upgraded partly with french resources. Of course such upgrades could not have happened in reality, which however is no problem IMHO because in reality the whole ship could never have been built to begin with. Its whole existence depends on France not being occupied. Joffre is posted as a never-built ship after all, and as long as changes from the original plans can be considered as educated guesswork rather than wild fantasies, I think they add realism rather than undermine it. Bringing the plans presented by Colombamike into reality would likely have taken till 1950, at which time it most certainly would no longer have looked like that (the RN was retrofitting angled decks by that time).

So, I see no reason to redraw the second image (please correct me if I'm wrong). Anyone wanting to draw the variant presented by Colombamike is free to use my drawing, of course.

Greetings
Garlicdesign

MihoshiK wrote:Your images are not correct. Plans released by the French Ministère de la Défense in 2009 back up Garlic's interpetation.

Apparently
You do not know the difference between 1939-1940 and 1945 ???

And you do not know the different studies of French engineers on aircraft carriers in 1939-1945, me yes
Garlic, listen to me

MihoshiK wrote:And I found that site with one whole minute of googling. You should try that, it might save you future embarrassment.

As usual you show your incompetence
(and your usual contempt for me)
If you are at least smart, you will notice that I have already posted on this site on a earlier conversation (12 january 2013), look here
"Bretagne Class Battleship"

Colombamike wrote:Even a more easier link
http://3dhistory.de/wordpress/?page_id=986

even though I know this site for a long time
and I know French sites since their...begining .....

I know well the plans French

Mihoshik
Please, the next time you criticize me, trying to be serious, it will change you
(and stops your blackmail/threats by your moderator rank, it undermines ALL shipbucket...)

Garlicdesign wrote: OK, no reason to get heated, you're both right. The source presented by Colombamike was unknown to me when I made the 1945 version and likely represents a plan to build the Joffre after the war ended. My version assumes the ship was actually built to the original plans and finished sometime in 1944 and then upgraded partly with french resources. Of course such upgrades could not have happened in reality, which however is no problem IMHO because in reality the whole ship could never have been built to begin with. Its whole existence depends on France not being occupied. Joffre is posted as a never-built ship after all, and as long as changes from the original plans can be considered as educated guesswork rather than wild fantasies, I think they add realism rather than undermine it. Bringing the plans presented by Colombamike into reality would likely have taken till 1950, at which time it most certainly would no longer have looked like that (the RN was retrofitting angled decks by that time).

My source dated from 1945 (a "Improved" Joffre), with wartime experience (mainly with US sensors/AA weapons). But I agree that this design was VERY unlikley to be build by 1945, mainly by the fact that even by 1942/1944 (under german occupation) the French designer began a serie of new carrier design (a kind of improved USS Wasp with some USS Essex class improvement )

Garlicdesign wrote:So, I see no reason to redraw the second image (please correct me if I'm wrong). Anyone wanting to draw the variant presented by Colombamike is free to use my drawing, of course.

This is your freedom/choice
I'm just trying to help you to draw the most possible REALISTIC drawing

Chapeau!

It is a fantastic series of drawings!

Colombamike wrote:

MihoshiK wrote:Your images are not correct. Plans released by the French Ministère de la Défense in 2009 back up Garlic's interpetation.

Apparently
You do not know the difference between 1939-1940 and 1945 ???

And you do not know the different studies of French engineers on aircraft carriers in 1939-1945, me yes

You're NOT the fount of wisdom you pretend to be, and that 1945 Joffre picture is only located on one single site acessible by google, and your picture is an enlarged version of that. Photobucket is not a verifiable source...

Or would you care to give us an actual source for your information, like a book, and page numbers, or perhaps even a scan of said book, instead of wild conjecture?

I'm in agreement that you need to cite specific page numbers, books, etc if you're going to be rude and arrogant about source images. Just saying "I know everything" isn't enough. You can't cite yourself when writing an academic paper if you have no real credentials.

Love the camo!

Top marks for this, GD. It's simply superb!