Warships to Lybia

[TimothyC]

My bad, actually! I should've realized that the nutcase 'Jones' is the Pastor Terry Jones in FLA. A dimwit, crazy, bigotted and entirely irrational person, whose mission in life seems to be to increase the misery among his fellow citizens - and who dares to blaspheme by calling himself a Christian. The other weirdo's name seems to be Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, a Coptic alien resident Egyptian, with a criminal past. He is the 'film maker'. I hope the FBI can do something about these dangerous looneys, though I have very little hope...

While I do not approve of the actions of Terry Jones and Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, other than fraud (no way this cost $5 million to produce*) and possibly something like willfull indifference (the cast and crew of the film have stated they didn't know that the movie was going to be about what it is about). Immorality is not illegality. I really don't think that you can blame the producers for attacks carried out in another country by other people. To do so not only damages the discourse in the US, but also reduces the people in foreign lands to something less than what they are. Every one of them is a human being same as you and me, and they chose to commit the acts they did. That goes both ways, and I salute and honor the Libyans who died defending the consulate, and those who tried to rescue Amb. Stevens for their decision to try and save the people in the compound.

As for the attack in Libya, it's looking more and more like it was an opportunistic attack that took advantage of both the anniversary of 9-11 and the crowd outside of the consulate.

*It almost looks like he saw the plot of a particular Mel Brooks film as a valid business plan.

[bezobrazov]

Tim, I agree with you in your analysis. However, if'd read my previous statements, you'd know I'm shifting the blame equally. Yes, I think these persons are in equal degree culpable as are the actual perpetrators.
I don't agree with you on the perceived damage to the discourse in our country, since it simply doesn't fall into that category. A flourishing democracy should have the right to defend itself from subversive, undermining political or social - or for that matter - religious movements and tendencies. In Germany the display of the Swastika is banned, so is the selling and purchase of 'Mein Kampf'. Thus the German democracy has chosen to defend its honor, integrity and democratic processes thus. I know we, in the US, can never bring these people to justice, so we can only pray that they'll burn for Eternity in the worst Hell imaginable.
I do wholeheartedly agree with you to praise those courageous Libyans and Egyptians and Jemenites who rose up to defend US citizens in peril!

[Portsmouth Bill]

In Germany the display of the Swastika is banned, so is the selling and purchase of 'Mein Kampf'.

Interesting. I was thinking along these lines earlier, and Bezo got there before me. The point being? A cultural devide, not between the USA and every country in the world with a Muslim majority, but between the USA and most Western democracy's. In the UK we have 'hate crime', any activity, including verbal incitement, against other subjects (unfortunately we are not yet 'citizens) that leads to civil unreast and acts that cause harm (my definition, so a bit ad lib).

I also agree that the 'tinder was dry'; that is, the USA is facing the serious possibility of being ejected diplomatically from some countries that were previously seen as allies, the reason being that the USA supported actively repressive regimes - as in Egypt. The so called 'Arab Spring' is not about introducing our version of democracy, more about ejecting previously repressive regimes (and that includes Russian sponsored ones).

In these dialogues I find it very, very difficult to convey to our American friends just how hated they (and we British) are in the Muslim world; and I would expect some of the reason for that is that the Muslim vote isn't worth much in US elections (draw your own conclusions).
my impression (and I'd like to be proved wrong) is that most Americans consider Muslims as hostile, whether as fellow citizens or living in Saudi Arabia.

Whereas China is getting on quietly buying up vast amounts of the Third World for resources, and not getting involved in foreign wars, the USA continues to bankrupt itself in funding wars it cannot win - Afghanistan being the most glaring example. How a country so in debt can continue to fund this folly is truly a tragedy to those of us who wish it well.

In the end its about oil.

[eswube]

Some people seem to have sooo delicate feelings. Enough if they hear from somebody, that someone else allegedly did something not exactly to their liking and people start to die... Other people start to die.

[KimWerner]

My five cents: If somebody in words, pictures or films insult you ask why and get a dialogue. If they aren't able to debate civilised, then leave. In this case somebody in the muslim world - in my point of view - take this offending (which it obviously is) as an oppotunity to raise a hurricane against the western world. Two reasons: One for doing mind terror against non muslims, two for suppressing muslims who might have an independent and more liberal interpretation of islam. I would not condemn the film makers, just shake my head. Rather I condemn the criminals who use this film to make some violent and murderish acts. When the rules for debate are that you're forbidden to discuss some certain things then it's impossible to have an open and freely debate. That's a huge problem in relations with radical muslims, but in fact also towards radical christians or other who believe that their politics or religion is the one and only truth in the world

[Colosseum]

You're either feared or respected.

You gain respect by minding your own business and setting an example. You become feared by making sure that anyone who f***s with you is dealt with accordingly.

You don't hear about Swiss ambassadors being killed for instance.

[heuhen]

You're either feared or respected.

You gain respect by minding your own business and setting an example. You become feared by making sure that anyone who f***s with you is dealt with accordingly.

You don't hear about Swiss ambassadors being killed for instance.

The Norwegian government says eeehhh, when it come to the question about puling back their ambassadors!

[Kilomuse]

It seems that people who are predisposed towards violence and mayhem will use any excuse, however small, to do such things. As much as I believe that this film is distasteful and needlessly provocative, I find myself leaning strongly towards the protection of free speech on issues like these.

[Vodianoi]

Free spech it´s getting a little away some lines, lately. One thing is free speech, and another anarchy and permission to insult. I mean, your rights ends when mines starts, and viceversa.
In this case in particular, i agree with my occidental mind that it´s overreacted kill one person for a movie, but obviously it´s just an excuse and the reasons are much, much more deeper than this.