French Self-analysis
France’s war strategy had been purely defensive, to stop the German advance at a defensive line and engage in a war of attrition. And, on the surface the war had progresses exactly to the French plan. France considered its strategy of re-fighting the Great War had been successful, and that they had done it single-handedly, considering the actions of the AASF as of no real concern as French troops would have broken any German push anyway. But there was concern about the military effectiveness of the Low Countries, with the potential in a future conflict of their collapsing and allowing a push behind the defensive line. The decision was made to extend the Maginot Line past the German border all the way to the coast, defending all of France but effectively placing the Low Countries outside of France’s defences.
The Armée de l’Air had been unprepared for the war and was still in the early phase of rearming, and had paid the price with the destruction of both the obsolescent types and the outnumbered modern types. Local aircraft production and American aircraft purchase were ramped up, both for mainland France-based and Colonial forces.
French armour had easily outgunned their German adversaries, but French doctrine was more concerned with infantry tanks functioning as mobile artillery to destroy fortifications, than for tank-on-tank combat. As such the weaknesses of poor range and combat manoeuvrability were considered irrelevant to this primary role. France had always been drawn to design large tanks, and this was seen as the natural complement to the extended Maginot Line. With the focus on static warfare in mainland France, more mobile and smaller cavalry tanks were considered a requirement only for the Colonial forces, with armoured cars able to perform scouting functions of the France-based cavalry units.
Politically France was seething. Britain had taken the glory for stopping Germany, something that France claimed for themselves. Britain had then taken the lead and negotiated an Armistice that had ignored the Poles, the raison d’être for the War. France had a welcomed a sizeable Polish émigré population, particularly in the French military, and they fostered a particular hatred for Germany that gained popularity amongst the French population. With the cooling of relations with Britain, a lack of confidence in the Low Countries, and marginalisation in the Balkans, France started a drift away from European engagement.
Manchester AU
Moderator: Community Manager
British Self-analysis
Britain had been unprepared for the conflict, and like France still in the process of rearming. Chamberlain’s policy of appeasement had been able to extend the interbellum to a point that Britain could defend itself, but it had been a close call. The abortive campaign in Norway had shown British mastery of the seas, but only after Germany had been able to mount an invasion before the Royal Navy was prepared.
On the ground in Norway confusion in preparing and mobilising troops had led to the loss of Narvik and a poorly supplied force in the field. A lack of success in Norway had led to a support mission for the Finns being cancelled, with Finland slipping into the German sphere of influence. The debacle of Norway had led directly to Chamberlain’s downfall, and then been instrumental in the fall of Churchill.
The Royal Air Force were fêted as the heroes of the War, with the Manchester pilots being seen as the longbowmen of Agincourt reborn. Although the Hurricanes had suffered at the hands of the Luftwaffe, most of the modern equipment, while the older aircraft had shown themselves to be already unsuitable for frontline service against another major nation. The canon-turret had shown itself to be a successful innovation and the airplane had proven itself as the decisive element against mobile ground forces.
The new government now found a rising tide of support. The Germany army was seen to have been defeated in the field by British airmen, while the German navy was now standing down from being a threat. The abandoning of Poland was an embarrassment, but a legacy of the previous administration. Germany had been humbled, but their Soviet allies were still a threat to the Empire. Britain was embolden and sought to regain its traditional mantle as the protector of Empire and guardian of European peace.
Britain had been unprepared for the conflict, and like France still in the process of rearming. Chamberlain’s policy of appeasement had been able to extend the interbellum to a point that Britain could defend itself, but it had been a close call. The abortive campaign in Norway had shown British mastery of the seas, but only after Germany had been able to mount an invasion before the Royal Navy was prepared.
On the ground in Norway confusion in preparing and mobilising troops had led to the loss of Narvik and a poorly supplied force in the field. A lack of success in Norway had led to a support mission for the Finns being cancelled, with Finland slipping into the German sphere of influence. The debacle of Norway had led directly to Chamberlain’s downfall, and then been instrumental in the fall of Churchill.
The Royal Air Force were fêted as the heroes of the War, with the Manchester pilots being seen as the longbowmen of Agincourt reborn. Although the Hurricanes had suffered at the hands of the Luftwaffe, most of the modern equipment, while the older aircraft had shown themselves to be already unsuitable for frontline service against another major nation. The canon-turret had shown itself to be a successful innovation and the airplane had proven itself as the decisive element against mobile ground forces.
The new government now found a rising tide of support. The Germany army was seen to have been defeated in the field by British airmen, while the German navy was now standing down from being a threat. The abandoning of Poland was an embarrassment, but a legacy of the previous administration. Germany had been humbled, but their Soviet allies were still a threat to the Empire. Britain was embolden and sought to regain its traditional mantle as the protector of Empire and guardian of European peace.
Norwegian Realm
Quisling’s seizure of power in the occupied territories of Norway was rejected by the Royal government in Tromsø, leaving Norway split into 2 rival countries. The Nasjonal Samling government now rejected King Haakon VII, renaming now their new state the Realm of Norway, as opposed to the Kingdom of Norway.
Before the War Norway had purchased 24 Curtis Hawk 75A-6 and 36 Hawk 75A-8’s. At the time of the invasion only 19 of the first batch of 75A-6 fighters had been delivered and were in the process of being uncrated and assembled at Kjeller Airbase. As the German bombers attacked these aircraft were sabotaged by the factory workers.
With the Germans leaving, Hirdens and ex-military personnel returned to Kjeller and recommenced working on the Curtis fighters. With the aircraft being made serviceable, the new Nasjonal Samling government reorganised the Norwegian Army and Navy Air Services as the Hirdens Flykorps.
Also at Kjeller were the crated components for local assembly of 10 Caproni Ca.312bis reconnaissance bombers. Two production aircraft were also ferried from assembly in Italy and arrived in Norway as the Germans were pulling out, and a further 13 aircraft had been ordered from Italy. Construction of the Ca.312bis aircraft was also started, with the aircraft being completed early in 1941.
The Nasjonal Samling government then attempted to get delivery of the remaining undelivered aircraft. However as the American government only recognised the Norwegian government of King Haakon VII, the supply further American aircraft to the Realm was not possible. Instead those Curtis Hawks were delivered to Tromsø in the northern Kingdom. The Italian government though felt no compunction in supplying the Ca.312bis aircraft, as they were a part of a fish-for-planes trade barter arrangement that had already been made.
Little remained of Norwegian military aviation in southern Norway after the Armistice, but the Germans had captured one of the Navy Air Service Heinkel He 115 A-2’s. Norway had placed an order for a further 6 aircraft in December 1939, and those aircraft were now delivered to the Realm in July.
Quisling’s seizure of power in the occupied territories of Norway was rejected by the Royal government in Tromsø, leaving Norway split into 2 rival countries. The Nasjonal Samling government now rejected King Haakon VII, renaming now their new state the Realm of Norway, as opposed to the Kingdom of Norway.
Before the War Norway had purchased 24 Curtis Hawk 75A-6 and 36 Hawk 75A-8’s. At the time of the invasion only 19 of the first batch of 75A-6 fighters had been delivered and were in the process of being uncrated and assembled at Kjeller Airbase. As the German bombers attacked these aircraft were sabotaged by the factory workers.
With the Germans leaving, Hirdens and ex-military personnel returned to Kjeller and recommenced working on the Curtis fighters. With the aircraft being made serviceable, the new Nasjonal Samling government reorganised the Norwegian Army and Navy Air Services as the Hirdens Flykorps.
Also at Kjeller were the crated components for local assembly of 10 Caproni Ca.312bis reconnaissance bombers. Two production aircraft were also ferried from assembly in Italy and arrived in Norway as the Germans were pulling out, and a further 13 aircraft had been ordered from Italy. Construction of the Ca.312bis aircraft was also started, with the aircraft being completed early in 1941.
The Nasjonal Samling government then attempted to get delivery of the remaining undelivered aircraft. However as the American government only recognised the Norwegian government of King Haakon VII, the supply further American aircraft to the Realm was not possible. Instead those Curtis Hawks were delivered to Tromsø in the northern Kingdom. The Italian government though felt no compunction in supplying the Ca.312bis aircraft, as they were a part of a fish-for-planes trade barter arrangement that had already been made.
Little remained of Norwegian military aviation in southern Norway after the Armistice, but the Germans had captured one of the Navy Air Service Heinkel He 115 A-2’s. Norway had placed an order for a further 6 aircraft in December 1939, and those aircraft were now delivered to the Realm in July.
Kingdom of Norway
Norway’s remaining active military assets had been withdrawn north in the face of the German advance. Norwegian air power had been whittled down by the fighting, and even with the addition of the Gloster Gladiators donated by the withdrawing British forces, the rump Kingdom had little available air power.
The decision by the Americans to continue with the supply of contracted aircraft to the Royal government came as a great relief, forestalling the potential of the Quisling government attempting to reunite the country by force. The remaining Curtis Hawks from the initial 75A-6 production order were shipped to Tromsø where they were rapidly made ready and painted in the new camouflage scheme that had been trialled on a Gladiator just as war broke out. The 75A-8 aircraft were shipped later, along with additional engines and conversion kits to standardise the 5 Twin Wasp powered 75A-6’s with the 36 Cyclone powered 75A-8’s.
Additionally, Norway had ordered 36 Douglas 8A-5N attack bombers for the Army Air Service and 24 Northrop N-3PB floatplanes for the Navy Air Service only a month before the invasion. The first of the Douglas bombers were completed at the Douglas factory in October, and by February 1941 all had been delivered – although due to the northern winter most were not uncrated and assembled until the following spring.
The construction of the Northrop seaplanes also continued in the United States, with the first being test flown in December 1940, and by March 1941 all had been delivered sporting the new marine camouflage scheme considered more appropriate to the political environment of the new Scandinavia.
While a single Heinkel He 115 A-2 had been captured by the Germans, the Norwegians had captured 2 Luftwaffe He 115’s themselves. The 5 Norwegian and 2 German aircraft had moved north and survived the conflict, with the German aircraft impressed into service with the Navy Air Service. In addition to their patrol duties the He 115’s were used to provide an airlink to Scotland.
Norway’s remaining active military assets had been withdrawn north in the face of the German advance. Norwegian air power had been whittled down by the fighting, and even with the addition of the Gloster Gladiators donated by the withdrawing British forces, the rump Kingdom had little available air power.
The decision by the Americans to continue with the supply of contracted aircraft to the Royal government came as a great relief, forestalling the potential of the Quisling government attempting to reunite the country by force. The remaining Curtis Hawks from the initial 75A-6 production order were shipped to Tromsø where they were rapidly made ready and painted in the new camouflage scheme that had been trialled on a Gladiator just as war broke out. The 75A-8 aircraft were shipped later, along with additional engines and conversion kits to standardise the 5 Twin Wasp powered 75A-6’s with the 36 Cyclone powered 75A-8’s.
Additionally, Norway had ordered 36 Douglas 8A-5N attack bombers for the Army Air Service and 24 Northrop N-3PB floatplanes for the Navy Air Service only a month before the invasion. The first of the Douglas bombers were completed at the Douglas factory in October, and by February 1941 all had been delivered – although due to the northern winter most were not uncrated and assembled until the following spring.
The construction of the Northrop seaplanes also continued in the United States, with the first being test flown in December 1940, and by March 1941 all had been delivered sporting the new marine camouflage scheme considered more appropriate to the political environment of the new Scandinavia.
While a single Heinkel He 115 A-2 had been captured by the Germans, the Norwegians had captured 2 Luftwaffe He 115’s themselves. The 5 Norwegian and 2 German aircraft had moved north and survived the conflict, with the German aircraft impressed into service with the Navy Air Service. In addition to their patrol duties the He 115’s were used to provide an airlink to Scotland.
Re: Manchester AU
Oh! Peruvian CAP will not recibe any Douglas 8A-5N (called there "Northorp")!!
Denmark
Denmark experienced relatively little disruption during the German occupation. Germany had captured Denmark to use its airfields in the invasion of Norway, and to prevent Britain seizing Denmark, rather than for any desire to integrate Denmark into Reich. Danish authorities had surrendered quickly, resulting in very little loss of life or damage. Only a single aircraft was shot down in the invasion, a Fokker C.V that was just getting airborne as German Bf 110 fighters swept over the airbase.
Once captured, Germany had had very little interest in Denmark; leaving the King and parliament in country and in control, even having the Danish military still in uniform. The most notable issue for the military was that all aircraft construction at both the naval and army works was suspended, with production lines of both Fairey P.4/34 and Fokker G.I “Wasp” halted before either had completed an aircraft.
With the departure of German forces from Denmark, Britain returned control of Iceland and the Faeroe Islands to Copenhagen. Rapidly aircraft production was recommenced; with the run of 12 Orlogsværftet LM.I aircraft, the Danish production name for the P4/34, completed by August. Likewise work was restarted on the 12 Fokkers, named the Flyverkorpsets IV R, and with their construction not having reached the advanced stage of the L.M.I’s they were only completed by December.
Looking at the results of the war for themselves and the Low Countries, the Danish government determined that neither a defensive nor offensive military served any purpose to protect a small country with large bellicose neighbours. Sovereignty could only be guaranteed by the adoption of a stance making their independence too important to be violated. As such Denmark disbanded all military combat formations, and instead focused on adopting a policy of Search, Rescue and Protection, from Greenland to the Baltic, calling the new service the Redningsvæsenet.
The L.M.I’s were problematic in the Redningsvæsenet. As a combat type, they no longer fitted within the Danish context, and as a potential export, there were no buyers after the disastrous showing of the Fairey Battles in May. They were grudgingly accepted into the Rescue Service, and with the completion of the airfield at Reykjavik, stationed in Iceland for search and policing over the North Atlantic.
The IV R was a different story, becoming a successful export for Denmark. The Fokker G.I acquitted itself well in the Battle Of The Netherlands, and after the Armistice the outstanding orders placed with the Dutch were still waiting to be filled. With Fokker now committed to redesigning the G.I for the tropical requirements of the NEI, Denmark received additional licences to continue producing the “Wasp” aircraft. Once an agreement had been made for the supply of Twin Wasp engines the production line was reopened with aircraft being sold to (in production order); Finland, Sweden and Spain.
Initially the reconstituted Danish Redningsvæsenet was equipped with German He 59D rescue aircraft. These war-surplus machines were adequate for coastal rescue work, but were inappropriate for the envisioned role of operations into the North Sea and North Atlantic. Trying to take a neutral path between the major states, Denmark approached The Netherlands to purchase Dornier Do 24 flying boats for the role. Aviolanda did not have the capacity, but Dornier’s Swiss subsidiary entered in to negotiations with American suppliers to acquire engines to recommence production.
In addition to commencing construction on the airfield at Reykjavik, the British had also started design work for an airfield on Vágar in the Faroe Islands. With assistance from Britain work on the Faroese airfield was commenced, to allow an airlink service from the Danish mainland through to Iceland.
The Focke-Wulf Condor that had been impounded in Britain in the wake of the German invasion was flown back to Denmark, and with the establishment of an air service through to Iceland an additional airliner was required. Focke-Wulf was approached for a pressurised D-series Condor. German design work on the pressurised Condor for the Dutch had been halted by war needs, and Focke-Wulf could not commit to the availability of a pressurised airliner. Keeping a strict neutrality, British manufacturers had been simultaneously approached, and Short Brothers jumped at the chance to save their S.32 airliner from scrapping. Although the S.32 had not flown, 2 prototypes had been constructed before the project had been placed on hold with the changing priorities of the British war effort. By early August the S.32 had made its first flight, and by November when civil aerodrome facilities had been constructed at Reykjavik the first weekly airliner service from Copenhagen via Scotland (as the Faroese airfield was still in construction) was started.
Denmark experienced relatively little disruption during the German occupation. Germany had captured Denmark to use its airfields in the invasion of Norway, and to prevent Britain seizing Denmark, rather than for any desire to integrate Denmark into Reich. Danish authorities had surrendered quickly, resulting in very little loss of life or damage. Only a single aircraft was shot down in the invasion, a Fokker C.V that was just getting airborne as German Bf 110 fighters swept over the airbase.
Once captured, Germany had had very little interest in Denmark; leaving the King and parliament in country and in control, even having the Danish military still in uniform. The most notable issue for the military was that all aircraft construction at both the naval and army works was suspended, with production lines of both Fairey P.4/34 and Fokker G.I “Wasp” halted before either had completed an aircraft.
With the departure of German forces from Denmark, Britain returned control of Iceland and the Faeroe Islands to Copenhagen. Rapidly aircraft production was recommenced; with the run of 12 Orlogsværftet LM.I aircraft, the Danish production name for the P4/34, completed by August. Likewise work was restarted on the 12 Fokkers, named the Flyverkorpsets IV R, and with their construction not having reached the advanced stage of the L.M.I’s they were only completed by December.
Looking at the results of the war for themselves and the Low Countries, the Danish government determined that neither a defensive nor offensive military served any purpose to protect a small country with large bellicose neighbours. Sovereignty could only be guaranteed by the adoption of a stance making their independence too important to be violated. As such Denmark disbanded all military combat formations, and instead focused on adopting a policy of Search, Rescue and Protection, from Greenland to the Baltic, calling the new service the Redningsvæsenet.
The L.M.I’s were problematic in the Redningsvæsenet. As a combat type, they no longer fitted within the Danish context, and as a potential export, there were no buyers after the disastrous showing of the Fairey Battles in May. They were grudgingly accepted into the Rescue Service, and with the completion of the airfield at Reykjavik, stationed in Iceland for search and policing over the North Atlantic.
The IV R was a different story, becoming a successful export for Denmark. The Fokker G.I acquitted itself well in the Battle Of The Netherlands, and after the Armistice the outstanding orders placed with the Dutch were still waiting to be filled. With Fokker now committed to redesigning the G.I for the tropical requirements of the NEI, Denmark received additional licences to continue producing the “Wasp” aircraft. Once an agreement had been made for the supply of Twin Wasp engines the production line was reopened with aircraft being sold to (in production order); Finland, Sweden and Spain.
Initially the reconstituted Danish Redningsvæsenet was equipped with German He 59D rescue aircraft. These war-surplus machines were adequate for coastal rescue work, but were inappropriate for the envisioned role of operations into the North Sea and North Atlantic. Trying to take a neutral path between the major states, Denmark approached The Netherlands to purchase Dornier Do 24 flying boats for the role. Aviolanda did not have the capacity, but Dornier’s Swiss subsidiary entered in to negotiations with American suppliers to acquire engines to recommence production.
In addition to commencing construction on the airfield at Reykjavik, the British had also started design work for an airfield on Vágar in the Faroe Islands. With assistance from Britain work on the Faroese airfield was commenced, to allow an airlink service from the Danish mainland through to Iceland.
The Focke-Wulf Condor that had been impounded in Britain in the wake of the German invasion was flown back to Denmark, and with the establishment of an air service through to Iceland an additional airliner was required. Focke-Wulf was approached for a pressurised D-series Condor. German design work on the pressurised Condor for the Dutch had been halted by war needs, and Focke-Wulf could not commit to the availability of a pressurised airliner. Keeping a strict neutrality, British manufacturers had been simultaneously approached, and Short Brothers jumped at the chance to save their S.32 airliner from scrapping. Although the S.32 had not flown, 2 prototypes had been constructed before the project had been placed on hold with the changing priorities of the British war effort. By early August the S.32 had made its first flight, and by November when civil aerodrome facilities had been constructed at Reykjavik the first weekly airliner service from Copenhagen via Scotland (as the Faroese airfield was still in construction) was started.
Re: Manchester AU
I almost agree with part of the "French Self-analysis": on the surface the war had progresses exactly to the allied (not only French) plan. So i don't believe england would "discuss an end to hostilities" that soon. At least not as "two equally powerful states".
However i folow your thread with great interrest.
Concerning danemark, maybe you could also use the Macchi that were ordered from italy just before the invasion. They would not fit in the Redningsvæsenet Search, Rescue and Protection policy. But maybe they could be saled to the Realm of Norway........
However i folow your thread with great interrest.
Concerning danemark, maybe you could also use the Macchi that were ordered from italy just before the invasion. They would not fit in the Redningsvæsenet Search, Rescue and Protection policy. But maybe they could be saled to the Realm of Norway........
"You can rape history, if you give her a child"
Alexandre Dumas
JE SUIS CHARLIE
Alexandre Dumas
JE SUIS CHARLIE
Re: Manchester AU
@Waritem, Lord Halifax did not want war with Germany, and he was prevented by Churchill from contacting the Italians to act as intermediaries to negotiate an end to the hostilities. If he had come to power after the Norway Debate in Britain, he would have attempted to negotiate out of the War as a first order of business - and that on the day that Germany struck west.
In reality I think that it would have taken longer for the horror of another trench war to have toppled Churchill, but I believe that "tommys in the trenches" would led to a loss in confidence in the government, in particular the bellicose Churchill, within a month - leading to Churchill's replacement by the "anti-Churchill" of Lord Halifax. The timing here is probably the only bit of "artistic license" I've taken, as it dovetails nicely with the timings on the Netherlands/Belgian front, and the assault on Narvik.
In reality I think that it would have taken longer for the horror of another trench war to have toppled Churchill, but I believe that "tommys in the trenches" would led to a loss in confidence in the government, in particular the bellicose Churchill, within a month - leading to Churchill's replacement by the "anti-Churchill" of Lord Halifax. The timing here is probably the only bit of "artistic license" I've taken, as it dovetails nicely with the timings on the Netherlands/Belgian front, and the assault on Narvik.
Re: Manchester AU
What i meant is that the outcoming of some kind of cold war between allies and axis is interesting but need some further development of the circumstances that led to it.Sheepster wrote: ↑November 2nd, 2020, 11:51 am @Waritem, Lord Halifax did not want war with Germany, and he was prevented by Churchill from contacting the Italians to act as intermediaries to negotiate an end to the hostilities. If he had come to power after the Norway Debate in Britain, he would have attempted to negotiate out of the War as a first order of business - and that on the day that Germany struck west.
In reality I think that it would have taken longer for the horror of another trench war to have toppled Churchill, but I believe that "tommys in the trenches" would led to a loss in confidence in the government, in particular the bellicose Churchill, within a month - leading to Churchill's replacement by the "anti-Churchill" of Lord Halifax. The timing here is probably the only bit of "artistic license" I've taken, as it dovetails nicely with the timings on the Netherlands/Belgian front, and the assault on Narvik.
To me, as it stands, the "victorious" allies would surely remain united (including with the Poles even maybe plus the Czechoslovakians) and would demand at least a return to the antebellum situation (which would be difficult without including the soviets in the negotiations). Not to mention possible sanctions for the aggressor ........
"You can rape history, if you give her a child"
Alexandre Dumas
JE SUIS CHARLIE
Alexandre Dumas
JE SUIS CHARLIE
Re: Manchester AU
Well I must point out that allies treat Poles in rather... instrumental way. Before, in and especially after the war. Situation when Poles just like Czechoslovakia is thrown away in the name of more global and personal goal is perfectly possible scenario. In more or less, that happen IRL .waritem wrote: ↑November 2nd, 2020, 1:28 pmTo me, as it stands, the "victorious" allies would surely remain united (including with the Poles even maybe plus the Czechoslovakians) and would demand at least a return to the antebellum situation (which would be difficult without including the soviets in the negotiations). Not to mention possible sanctions for the aggressor ........
Nobody expects the Imperial Inquisition!