Second World War Aircraft Carrier Challenge

[Kiwi Imperialist]

This is my idea of a then modern aircraft carrier for Germany's navy in the early 40's.

Looking at one of the comments to his drawings, I went to see the Independent class carriers and made a project of my own, thanking in advance "matedow" for using for a start his concept and his idea.

Cargil48, you have successfully created interesting adaptations of DG_Alpha’s Graf Zeppelin and MateDow’s Tolland. Unfortunately, I think there has been a misunderstanding. The rule “each participant may submit one or two images” should have been written as “each participant may submit one image, or two if both images depict the same ship”. The intention was to give participants an opportunity to show how their ships evolved over time. Matedow’s entry is perhaps the most extreme example of this so far. Allowing multiple entries per person was not my intent, and I must apologise for not adequately conveying this fact in the rules. However, when it comes time to create the poll, I will only include one of your submissions. I must ask you to choose either Graf Zeppelin or Nashville (you don't have to remove the other from this thread). I strongly recommend Graf Zeppelin. Nashville, as the development of a previous entry within the same challenge, will likely founder in the originality category. I am sorry if you hoped to see both of your drawings in the community poll.

[Cargil48]

Sensors: US made radar units for general aerial survey, one unit for surface scanning (and/or navigation) and one unit serving as approach guidance for the incoming airplanes with altitude indication. One omni-directional beam to guide the airplanes home (range 42km), ship-to-ship voice radio, ship-to-aiplane comm, sonar in the bow.

I have a few comments here:

1. I agree with Erik that two SM heightfinders are overkill and not very realistic for this ship - SM was a heavy and complex installation and the real life CVLs did not receive these sets until late in the war as more became available (they were initially prioritized for the large fleet carriers)
2. Carriers of the time did not to my knowledge have radar-assisted approach guidance for aircraft - the SG, SK, and SM sets in your drawing were used for search (SG for surface search and navigation, SK for air search, and SM for heightfinding of air targets).
3. Bow sonar is not necessary for aircraft carriers of this period as destroyers will be used for ASW
4. I would remove the SM from above the pilot house and relocate the after SM tower to a position between the funnels (this will require some modification of the folding antenna masts)
5. Once you move that SM, you can then relocate the YG homing beacon to the position above the pilot house to achieve some separation between YE (at the mast head) and YG above pilot house.

Colosseum, again my thanks to your comments. They triggered my curiosity and let me say that one the main goals of my interest in drawing stuff here is to learn mainly the details: what was made, by whom, when and for what purpose. And, even more, what could have been built if military top brass weren't so ignorant (as was mainly the case with Germany and Japan, regarding the radar and also the jet engine (in the case of Germany).

Now, I hope you allow me to try to counter some points of what you say.

First, the SP/CXDT (and not SM as you mention): "The SP or CXDT radar was a lIghtweight SM installed on the Essex carriers, battleships, cruisers, and even a few destroyers." Their weight was 4,1 tons.

Source: http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/S/p/SP_figh ... _radar.htm

Now, my thinking was the following: One is responsible on a mid sized CV for a fleet of 54 airplanes (28 Ju 87 Stuka dive bombers and 26 Fw 190 fighter planes) coming in after a sortie. The Ju 87 were not known for too high a fuel load... so one must control them very accurately to get them back on the deck and in a sequence that avoids others in line to abort an attempt because they are too close on the glideslope. Since I saw in this description of the SP they were used for airplane direction, I thought to myself: How did they manage it back in those days to get all the planes down orderly when visibility was not optimal? Then the German night control of fighters attacking English bombers came to my mind and I simply decided to use one unit in front, for air search, mainly ennemy planes; and another one turned backwards for GCA use (Ground Controlled Approach) to get a smooth approach and landing of all 56 units already on their fuel limits...
And another thought came to my mind: Why did Scharnhorst had its sad fate in the "Battle of the Nordkap"? Because one of the first shots of the attacking British battleship was a bit too high and missed the ship, but... it teared completely apart the main radar antenna high up on the main mast, and the ship "got blind" immediately... Therefore I thought: This is a situation a CV simply cannot afford, so the hell with 4 more tons, "safety first" and redundancy as well... One unit used by the aircraft spotting crew (the one in front) and a second one used mainly by the ATC responsible to help the incoming planes to get a correct spacing and glidepath coming down the slope in foul weather. It was not done in WWII? But it could have been, and I guess with good use. And... for 4,1 extra tons? Paw...

Edit: Colloseum, now I found something which overthrows my thought of using the front mounted unit for general air search... Looking at the original radar unit (the one which was indeed heavy, at 9 tons...), I read this passage: "It (the SM) could track in three dimensions with high accuracy and at close range, and it included a BM antenna for Identification Friend or Foe (IFF). However, its distinctive beam, which was narrow both horizontally and vertically, made it unsuitable for air search." Being so, I guess it was used as an AA artillery director unit (and in my case - the much lighter version) could be used as a GCA radar for the purpose I described. I will then remove the front unit.

PS: The sonar in the bow was already there when I started my version of the ship, but I will remove it as well.

[Cargil48]

This is my idea of a then modern aircraft carrier for Germany's navy in the early 40's.

Looking at one of the comments to his drawings, I went to see the Independent class carriers and made a project of my own, thanking in advance "matedow" for using for a start his concept and his idea.

Cargil48, you have successfully created interesting adaptations of DG_Alpha’s Graf Zeppelin and MateDow’s Tolland. Unfortunately, I think there has been a misunderstanding. The rule “each participant may submit one or two images” should have been written as “each participant may submit one image, or two if both images depict the same ship”. The intention was to give participants an opportunity to show how their ships evolved over time. Matedow’s entry is perhaps the most extreme example of this so far. Allowing multiple entries per person was not my intent, and I must apologise for not adequately conveying this fact in the rules. However, when it comes time to create the poll, I will only include one of your submissions. I must ask you to choose either Graf Zeppelin or Nashville (you don't have to remove the other from this thread). I strongly recommend Graf Zeppelin. Nashville, as the development of a previous entry within the same challenge, will likely founder in the originality category. I am sorry if you hoped to see both of your drawings in the community poll.

Kiwi,

Thanks for the explanation and correction. My apologies but you got my thinking correct... Being so, yes, put into the poll the ship you think best suited to get the attention of the guys here. Cheers! Carlos

[Colosseum]

Yes, SP/SM were pencil beam "heightfinders" and not search radar necessarily -- the air search function on your ship will be fulfilled by the SK antenna above the mast. The SP would then be used to track the altitude of aerial targets.

Again, I would recommend looking at the real life installations on similar ships when creating AU ships -- this is the best way to ensure what you're creating is "believable".

My own idea for the radar fit on this ship would be as follows:

- SG (surface search) - paired with BK/BL IFF antenna (on yardarms)
- SK (air search) - BL/BI IFF antenna (integral)
- SP (height finder) - BM IFF antenna (integral)
- YE homing beacon (mast top)
- YG homing beacon (backup - pilot house) -- you may not really need another homing beacon, most CVL/CVE types only carried YE

[erik_t]

BB1987's entry is obviously incredible.

[emperor_andreas]

BB1987, my friend...another masterpiece! And a hangar layout to boot! I tip my cap, sir...most impressive!

[Yqueleden]

BB1987's entry is obviously incredible.

I have my drawing almost finished (with changes in the elevators, thank you very much for the advice) but after seeing those of garlicdesign, superboy or BB1987... The quality of those drawings is amazing.

Greetings

[BB1987]

I've modified my entry by changing the B5Ns to a more updated and correctly scaled version.
(same for the A6M as of 10/08).

[Armoured man]

sorry if the background text seems a little bit rush and bare bones, I promise once I upload it to my Zipang thread, this class of carrier will be too much more flush up back sorry


Displacement: 45,800 tonnes standard
Dimensions: 920ft x 101ft x 32ft
Machinery: 4-shaft geared turbines, 20 water tube boiler, 120,500 shp
Speed: 26 knts
Endurance: 8,000 nautical miles at 10 knots

Armament: kuuryū as Commissioned: 1926
8x2 12cm Type-25 DP
4x2 3cm Type 26 autocannons
2x1 12.7mm Machine Guns

Armament: kuuryū as of: 1942
8x2 12cm Type-25 DP
10x2 3cm Type 28 mod 2 autocannons
2x1 12.7mm Machine Guns

Aircraft
Upper hangar 648ft long; 71ft wide; 18ft high; capacity for 26 aircraft, plus 4 dismantled aircraft
Lower hangar 683ft long; 77ft wide; 17ft high; capacity for 41 aircraft, plus 6 dismantled aircraft
Dark park: 6 permanent parking positions
Total capacity: 67 aircraft ( 107 including deckpark)

Armour:
Main Belt: 8 inches
Deck: 4 inches over boiler rooms, machinery spaces and magazines
Flight deck: 1 inches
Torpedo protection: double space bulkheads


originally laid down as the absolutely colossal Tajima class superdreadnought, kuuryū and atsuiryū were for quite some time, the largest aircraft carriers in terms of displacement and overall size, although compared two other contemporary carriers of day they're air wing was on the lower end in terms of size at only 67, not including a deckpark.

throughout the late 20s and early 30s, both massive carriers would be responsible for forging, the zipang navys aircraft carrier doctrine, with them being classified as a assault carriers based on their aircraft complement, while the smaller carriers were classified as scout carriers due to their much higher speed and smaller air group, going into 1930 for both carriers would take part in the Zipang- Japanese war, although the Japanese had the advantage when it came to aircraft carrier doctrine, kuuryū and atsuiryū made up for the disadvantages in advanced aircraft tactics with sheer size, but with the wars end on November the 9th 1934, both ships would come under the control of the Imperial Japanese Navy, and would later be incorporated into the IJN first carrier division.

both carriers would lend their aircraft to the attack on Pearl Harbour, on the 5th of December 1941, they would also take part in the Battle of Darwin on the 19th of February 1941 with aircraft from kuuryū being credited with sinking the destroyer USS William B. Preston, and damaging the USAT Meigs, Both carriers will also take part in the capture of the Philippines in Mid 1941.

Going into 1942 both carriers would receive updated aircraft, along with a refit improve they pretty weak anti aircraft capabilities, both carriers would take part during the battle of the Coral Sea, with their aircraft helping to sink the carrier USS Lexington and damaging a US fleet oiler, both carriers would also be present as part of the first carrier division at the Battle of Midway, where they would go on to be attacked by US land base dever and carrier based aircraft, fortunately both carriers would come out of the battle relatively unscathed unlike the other members of the first carrier division and the escorts.


Ships in class: (laid down-launched-commissioned - fate)

Kuuryū (CV-4) 1919-1922-1926 - ?
Atsuiryū (CV-5) 1919-1922-1926 - ?

[emperor_andreas]

Love that camouflage scheme!