Federal Republic of Denton

[Tobius]

I respectfully submit that the Type 212 machinery (battery cells, AIP, Diesel and electric motor takes up about two fifths to fully half the internal space. The Walrus is also proportionally larger, perhaps as much as two fifths itself?

A lithium battery is extremely dangerous and requires ancillary refrigeration and bus safeties that take up room not associated with lead acid battery cells. Lead acid is no picnic either (ventilation), but the size footprint of lithium batteries versus lead is not that significant.

Diesel engines because of metallurgical limits and petroleum chemistry are not significantly smaller. They are just more reliable. This I know directly from American and German examples.

I am glad we agree that length is a crucial factor. I defer to your expertise as a naval architect as to volume but I still argue the point that volume is a cube factor not a linear one when it comes to available work space..

Handling gear means three methods; ram feed by piston (even if it is rail suspended overhead and trolleys in the fish), direct piston push from behind the torpedo or by block and tackle motorized or manual cable haul (US method until recently). The block and tackle method takes less [overhead] space but it is more time consuming and manpower intensive. These three AFAIK however require a clear man space at least half again the length of the torpedo.

Stack torpedoes up 3(tubes) 3 on racks and 1 slung independent versus 2 (tubes) +4 (racks forward) +4 racks over.

The German boat's torpedo stowage is inefficient because it has no room for racks forward. That is taken up by the additional torpedo tubes.

[ezgo394]

Thank you Tobius, but please stop. I understand what you're driving at, but you're looking too far into this. Unless you are an actual submarine designer (which I am not and I don't think that anyone else here is), then there is no reason to go beyond simple specs. I appreciate your concern, but the sub stays the same. I compared all the subs similar to the class, Gotland, 212, 214, Dolphin, and everything indicates that my design is okay and my numbers are fine. Your calculations show that subs like the 212 shouldn't work, but it's clearly been working perfectly for the German Navy for 10 years. So what does that tell you?

Odysseus, thank you for your input. I may well do that unless anyone else has any ideas.

-EZ

[apdsmith]

Hey Ethan,

Regards your MLP, I guess the first question is dependent on how you'd want to use it ... the first one, with LCAC docks along the side (and possibly a helicopter deck up high) allows you quite a lot of throughput but at a cost of the ability to actually carry the equipment. Specifically, from what I can see, the helicopter facilities on Option 1 are much better than the facilities on Option 2 can be. Further, I'm not sure that option 2 would allow bow and stern to be ballasted to bring fore-and-aft docks to the waterline. However, Option 1 MLPs would have very limited scope for operation away from the LMSR - with the amount of deck space reserved for actually transferring equipment around, there's simply less there for storage, from what I can see.

Ad

[ezgo394]

The MLP is basically a floating port. It is not designed to transport equipment, rather act as a staging platform for areas where a port facility is not available. The RoRo and Materiels transport ships are the ones that transport vehicles and supplies, which then use the MLP with LCUs and hovercrafts to actually transport equipment to shore. That said, however, there are accommodations for marines, assault troops, etc., on board the ship (but for temporary use).
I'm leaning towards the first design. I think it makes more sense overall and there's more that I can do with the design than with Option 2.

[ezgo394]

After a week and a half of tearing my hair out and talking to various members, I've finally completed the modern (2013) organization for the Denton Armed Forces (excl. Army).
Concerning the numbers, I welcome comments, but it's likely I will not change anything unless there is an extremely good reason. Please, before commenting, make sure you read all of the notes.
For the aircraft lists, I have put a comparable aircraft next to it. This is not what will be used, but rather an aircraft similar in size, payload, etc.
A new thing that I added is a Flight Training School, consolidating all of the basic, intermediate, and advanced training aircraft into one 'unit.' There are still Operational Conversion Units in each branch for specific aircraft.

____________________

The military numbers are all based on a hypothetical standard population size of 35,000,000

Military Size
Army: 95,000
Air Force: 40,000
Navy: 33,000 + 7,000 MSC
Total Active: 175,000

Reserves
Army Reserve: 65,000
Air Force Reserve: 12,000
Navy Reserve: 11,000
Total Reserve: 88,000

National Guard
National Guard: 43,000
Total National Guard: 43,000

Coast Guard
Coast Guard: 6,000
Total Coast Guard: 6,000


Denton Navy
55 Warships
12 Submarines
125 Auxiliaries
2 Historical
2 Permanent Charter

Warships
-2 STOVL Aircraft Cruiser (17,000 ton)
-1 CATOBAR Aircraft Carrier (34,000 ton)
-28 Multi-Purpose Frigate (before construction of new ships)
OR
-16 Multi-Purpose Frigate (after construction of new ships)
-12 Escort Frigate/Corvette (after construction of new ships)
-24 Fast Attack Craft

Submarines
-8 Diesel Electric Hunter-Killer Submarine
-4 Diesel Electric Cruise Missile Submarine

Auxiliaries
-6 Minesweeper
-12 Minehunter
-2 Landing Platform Dock (13,000 ton)
-2 Landing Helicopter Dock (24,000 ton)
-4 Landing Ship Tank
-8 Landing Craft Utility
-12 Medium Hovercraft
-4 Heavy Hovercraft
-16 Landing Craft Mechanized (bt)

Military Sealift Command
-4 Replenishment Ship
-3 Roll-on, Roll-off Ship
-5 Materiels Transport
-1 Mobile Landing Platform
-1 Hospital Ship
-4 Ocean Going Tugs
-12 Harbor Tug
-2 Rescue & Salvage Tug
-6 Support Tenders (3000 ton)
-16 Fleet Tenders, Multi Purpose (250 ton)
-2 Signals Intelligence Vessels
-1 Sail Training Vessel

Historical
-1 Drydocked Sailship
-1 Drydocked Ironclad

Permanent Charter
-1 Heavy Lift Ship (hvy hov, LCU, etc)
-1 Oil/Fuel Tanker

CG1: 1 STOVL carrier, 2 ASW, 2 AAW, AOR
CG2: 1 STOVL carrier, 2 ASW, 2 AAW, AOR
CG3: 1 CATOBAR carrier, 2 ASW, 2 AAW, AOR
AMSG1: 1 LHD, 1 LPD, 2 LST, 5 Hov, 2 ASW, 2 AAW, s/AOR
AMSG2: 1 LHD, 1 LPD, 2 LST, 5 Hov, 2 ASW, 2 AAW, s/AOR

There are 2 STOVL carriers and one CATOBAR carrier. This is clearly not the most cost effective solution, but in the naval reorganization program in the 80s, there were 2 CATOBAR carriers reaching the end of their service life. The decision was made to replace one CATOBAR carrier with another new carrier, and replace the other with two STOVL carriers, based on the USN's Vertical Support Ship concept. This would give three carriers, with one of the STOVL carriers on station most of the time, while the CATOBAR carrier could be used to fill that gap, as well as be free to participate in any naval air support operations.
Each of the three carrier groups are set up with 2 AAW Frigates, 2 ASW Frigates, and an AOR.
In addition, frigates are used to support the Amphibious Strike group, with the same composition as the carrier group, but with the AOR being shared between the two groups.
Before the new ships are built, there are 28 Multi-Purpose Frigates.
As a cost saving measure, when all the new ships enter service, there will be 16 Multi-Purpose Frigates and 12 Escort Frigates/Corvettes, replaced on a one-by-one basis. The larger multipurpose frigates will be tasked with protecting Carrier Battle Groups and supporting Amphibious Landings, while the Escort Frigates will be tasked with Pickets, anti-Piracy, Escort duties for non-combatants, and stationing at territories.
I doubled the number of Fast Attack Craft, with my reasoning being similar to that of Torpedo Boats. They're inexpensive, easy to procure, and pack a punch. This arrangement will give me 2 squadrons of 12, with each one at either end of the country.
There are 16 fleet tenders, which are used for just about everything nowadays. Each ship is configured for a specific role, from dive support, to light salvage, to minor cargo transport.
There are also 4 Support Tenders, much like the Elbe class. These are for supporting the FAC, submarines, MCM vessels, etc.
The signals intelligence vessels are small SIGINT/ELINT and reconnaissance ships.
The single Heavy Lift ship is for transporting LCUs, and Hvy hovercraft to the area of operations.

Denton Navy Air Arm:
226 Aircraft

22 Maritime Patrol Aircraft (3 x 6 + OCU x 4) (P-3)
4 Light Transport Aircraft (1 x 4) (C-295)
28 SAR/GP Helicopter (2 x 12 + OCU x 4) (SH-3)
84 ASW Helicopter (6 x 12 + OCU x 12) (SH-3)
38 Fighter Aircraft (2 x 16 + OCU x 6) (Rafale)
30 VSTOL Aircraft (2 x 12 + OCU x 6) (Harrier)
4 AEW Aircraft (1 x 4) (E-2)
6 AEW Helicopter (1 x 6) (SH-3)
10 Transport Helicopter (1 x 8 + OCU x 2) (CH-3)


Denton Coast Guard Size:

-42 Utility Boat (40-45ft)
-28 Lifeboats (45-55ft) (12x 46, 16x 54)
-4 High Endurance Cutters (360ft)
-6 Medium Endurance Cutters (270ft)
-12 Coastal Cutter (110ft)
-24 Patrol Cutter/Boat (70ft)
-6 Sea-Going Bouy Tenders
-4 Coastal Bouy Tenders
-5 Inland Bouy Tenders (truck transportable)
-6 Hydrographic Survey Vessels
-4 Icebreakers (owned by Hirshey Federal Marine Research Center, but manned by DCG)
-2 Lighthouse Tender
-3 Fishery Research Ship

Denton Coast Guard Air Arm:
80 Aircraft

12 SAR/Patrol Aircraft (1 x 12) (C295)
48 SAR/GP Helicopter (4 x 12 + OCU x 8) (HH-52, HH-65 Dauphin)
4 Medium Transport Aircraft (1 x 4) (C295)
4 Small Transport Aircraft (1 x 4) (King Air)
12 UAV Helicopter (1 x 12) (Bell Eagle Eye)


Denton Air Force Size:
412 Aircraft

180 Fighter/FGA (8 x 18 + OCU x 36) (Tornado)
18 Recce/EW (1 x 18) (Tornado)
44 Ground Attack (2 x 18 + OCU x 8) (YA-9)
6 AEW (1 x 6) (E-3)
4 ELINT (1 x 4) (RC-135)
22 Heavy Bomber (3 x 6 + OCU x 4) (187 Condor)
16 Light Transport (1 x 16) (C-295)
32 Medium Transport (2 x 16) (A400M)
12 Heavy Transport (1 x 12) (C-5 Galaxy)
8 Tanker/Transport (1 x 8) (KC-135)
6 Gunship (1 x 6) (AC-130)
14 UAV Surveillance (1 x 12 & 1 x 2) (MQ-1 & RQ-4 resp.)
24 Utility Helicopter (2 x 12) (Bell 212)
16 Light Helicopter (1 x 16) (Bell 206)
10 VIP Aircraft (2 B737, 4 Falcon, 4 B206. 2 B777 on charter)


Denton Army Air Arm:
388 Aircraft

56 Attack Helicopters (4 x 12 + OCU x 8) (Apache)
108 Light Helicopters (8 x 12 + OCU x 12) (OH-58/B206)
132 Utility Helicopters (10 x 12 + OCU x 12) (Bell 212)
64 Transport Helicopters (5 x 12 + OCU x 4) (CH-47/CH-53)
12 Very Heavy Helicopter (1 x 12) (Mil V-12)
16 UAV Recce (1 x 16) (SAGEM Sperwer)


Denton Armed Forces Flight Training School
276 Aircraft
Basic
24 Motor Glider (2 x 12) (Grob 109)
24 Basic Aircraft trainer (3 x 12) (Grob 120)
12 Multi-Engine Trainer (1 x 12) (King Air)
36 Helicopter Trainer (3 x 12) (Robinson R-22)
Advanced
72 Int Turboprop Trainer (6 x 12) (PC-9)
60 Adv Jet Trainer (5 x 12) (T-38)
24 Multi-Engine Trainer Sys&Ops (2 x 12) (King Air)
24 Adv Helicopter Trainer (2 x 12) (tbd)
____________________

-Ethan

[odysseus1980]

Looks powerful!

The Mil V-12 was the prototype, production machines would be designated Mil Mi-12. It was replaced with Mi-26 in real life. It seems that Dentonite techicians work out all the bugs!

http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/mi-12.php

[ezgo394]

The Active Military is 0.5%, the Reserve is 0.25%, the National Guard is 0.125%. So, I'm perfectly within the normal recommendation that the active military is less than 1.0% of population. Plus, with all the islands around the country, the absorption of New Coburg Gotha in the 80s, and the South Pacific Territory, there is a large area of land/air/water to defend, giving a little bit of reason for the size.

Well, it will be a Dentonite design from the beginning, based on the V-12. While I listed CH-47/CH-53 equivalent for the transport helicopters, I may very well go with a Mi-6 or Mi-26 type with commonality with the V-12 type. I've actually already written up information on those types:
------
H.8 (Mil Mi-6 equivalent)

The H.8 was a heavy lift helicopter, built for the MTB. It was the primary heavy lift helicopter for the Armed forces until it was replaced by the H.8-2/H.10.
1959-1998 (1998-present, secondary service)

------
H.8-2/H.10 (Mil Mi-26 equivalent)

The H.8-2/H.10 was the replacement for the H.8. The first order of H.8-2s suffered from reliability problems, prompting for the order to be cancelled and dictating that the H.8 stay in service.
The H.10 was an improvement over the H.8-2 and entered production in 1997
H.8-2 (1978-1981)
H.10 (1997-present)

------
V.8 (Mil V-12 equivalent)

The V.8 was a helicopter with a transverse rotor setup. It used the same engine, transmission, and rotor from the H.8, and laid them side by side.
1972-present

------
V.8-2 (Mil V-12 equivalent)

The V.8-2 was complete rework of the V.8, with the mechanics coming from the H.10.
1998-present


Notes:
Wings were added on the H.8 through H.10, to increase lift during cruise.

On the H.8-2, the wing tilted down to minimise interference in the rotor slipstream. On the H.10, the wing was also removable to decrease empty weight for heavy lift operationsAll of these were/are offered to civil services as well.

-Ethan

[Rowdy36]

Looks good to me, I'm looking forward to seeing the drawings!

[ezgo394]

Okay, time for the WIP of the MLP.

I never was able to appreciate the size of the Saale Class until I put it next to the USN's LCAC. It is huge.

Obviously, I've gone with a design based more on the Blue Marlin or Mighty Servant, than the USN's Expeditionary Transfer Dock. However, I think this is the best arrangement. Obviously, in the rear is a well dock for one Saale class. Just ahead and above is the hangar facilities for helicopters, and the main helideck. Below that is the staging area for vehicles waiting to be transferred onto waiting hovercrafts and ahead of the staging area is a set of three well docks for standard sized LCACs (meaning a hovercraft that can fit into the well decks of most Amphibious ships).

A note on the drawing: The rear well deck is flanked by two 'walls' that will mask the hovercraft. This is denoted by the red line that runs along the top and the rear. This 'wall' continues to the forward edge of the hangar, where the red line runs through one of the trucks. Everything forward to the bow is open.

Comments on the overall design and implementation? Remember that this is not a transport ship, but rather a mobile port facility. I'm curious if I should reduce the three side well docks to two, to enlarge the size of the staging area or if I should raise the helicopter deck enough to create a two level staging area?

-Ethan

[DG_Alpha]

This one looks promising. Can't wait for more.