Republic of Rossiya, Beast from the South

[acelanceloet]

how exactly can they not be part of it. the treaties were meant to stop arms races from happening. if you have a first-line fleet, much like US & UK, and you are not part of the treaties, that means US and UK cannot be ready for an confrontation with you. this would mean the treaty limits would have no meaning anymore, and the treaties would not have been there, or at the very least not in this shape, when there was another power.

[OberstAmiruddin]

Same reason the US for not joining the League of Nations. Rossiya was not happy with harsh treaty and Rossiya wanted to isolationist and do nothing with Britain. Also like America, Rossiya had a proportion of her population from German heritage (30 percent) and they were displeased with the Paris Peace settlements. With that Rossiya didn't ratify the treaty or the League of Nations but it agreed to join in the naval treaties only because the US invited them

[eltf177]

I had to SS Arachne as I wasn't sure design would work:

*****

Arachne, Royssia Super Cruiser laid down 1935

Displacement:
21,983 t light; 22,993 t standard; 26,291 t normal; 28,930 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
698.86 ft / 688.98 ft x 78.74 ft x 30.84 ft (normal load)
213.01 m / 210.00 m x 24.00 m x 9.40 m

Armament:
20 - 5.98" / 152 mm guns (5x4 guns), 107.15lbs / 48.60kg shells, 1935 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (4x2 guns), 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1935 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
36 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (12x3 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1935 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
4 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1935 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2,406 lbs / 1,091 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 350
16 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 459.32 ft / 140.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: 2.95" / 75 mm 131.23 ft / 40.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
98.43 ft / 30.00 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.72" / 120 mm 3.15" / 80 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 1.18" / 30 mm -

- Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 231,486 shp / 172,689 Kw = 37.00 kts
Range 14,000nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,937 tons

Complement:
1,032 - 1,342

Cost:
£9.890 million / $39.562 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 301 tons, 1.1 %
Armour: 4,036 tons, 15.4 %
- Belts: 1,638 tons, 6.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 850 tons, 3.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,435 tons, 5.5 %
- Conning Tower: 112 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 6,576 tons, 25.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,320 tons, 39.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,308 tons, 16.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 750 tons, 2.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
38,232 lbs / 17,342 Kg = 356.8 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 16.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 81 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.55
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.62

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low forecastle, low quarterdeck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.75 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30.10 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 4.10 ft / 1.25 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32.81 ft / 10.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 32.81 ft / 10.00 m (39.37 ft / 12.00 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 39.37 ft / 12.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 32.81 ft / 10.00 m (39.37 ft / 12.00 m before break)
- Stern: 32.81 ft / 10.00 m
- Average freeboard: 37.07 ft / 11.30 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 210.3 %
Waterplane Area: 39,416 Square feet or 3,662 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 129 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 130 lbs/sq ft or 636 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.85
- Longitudinal: 4.34
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Built with Japanese assistance. Main Battery in a "Mogami"-type layout. TT's in quad beam mounts with one set of reloads each. Miscellaneous weight includes 2 beam-mounted catapults and a crane amidships for 2 floatplanes (no hanger).

*****

Made the TT's quads instead of twins. Turns out design works quite well but requires a _huge_ BC-sized hull...

[acelanceloet]

Same reason the US for not joining the League of Nations. Rossiya was not happy with harsh treaty and Rossiya wanted to isolationist and do nothing with Britain. Also like America, Rossiya had a proportion of her population from German heritage (30 percent) and they were displeased with the Paris Peace settlements. With that Rossiya didn't ratify the treaty or the League of Nations but it agreed to join in the naval treaties only because the US invited them

yes, but if one major power is not in the treaty, it means that that power can build a fleet the other can't, and so the others would have to break the treaty (or in other words, it would not have been signed by the other major powers)

[JSB]

I had to SS Arachne as I wasn't sure design would work:
Arachne, Royssia Super Cruiser laid down 1935
Displacement:
22,993 t standard
Complement:
1,032 - 1,342
Cost:
£9.890 million / $39.562 million

Turns out design works quite well but requires a _huge_ BC-sized hull...

Nobody will build a 20Kt CL for 10 million pounds ! that's BB numbers for that you could buy a Dunkerque class (or at least some of the early designs and they would be much better)

And yes you do need to include them in WNT/LNT (or redo/break the treaty's its your AU ) but a massive navy such as yours will have big effects (historically the RN was at a 2 power standard, without including the USN (who where equal sized but was not politically regard as a potential threat) If you create a new power who isn't allied/linked with USN/RN then they will build more to counter it and its position in the Indian ocean is a serious threat to the GB empire).

JSB

[eltf177]

I had to SS Arachne as I wasn't sure design would work:
Arachne, Royssia Super Cruiser laid down 1935
Displacement:
22,993 t standard
Complement:
1,032 - 1,342
Cost:
£9.890 million / $39.562 million

Turns out design works quite well but requires a _huge_ BC-sized hull...

Nobody will build a 20Kt CL for 10 million pounds ! that's BB numbers for that you could buy a Dunkerque class (or at least some of the early designs and they would be much better)

JSB

Agreed, whoever's in charge of the budget would never allow such huge but weakly-armed ships to be built. But they still get designed anyway...

[OberstAmiruddin]

Alright, the Arachne class "LIGHT" cruiser will be redone
But can you show what I should do to make it a light cruiser?

[OberstAmiruddin]

Arachne class Light Cruiser (REWORKED)

Thanks to the doctrines learned from the Kriegsmarine, the Arachne class light cruisers were built to support fleet action but they have the capability to raid convoys if necessary, thus it lacked armour only 6 inches at the thickest on belt armour and just 2 inches of deck armour but it had the speed, 37 knots thanks to her diesel engines. Her class also had 12 six inch cannons, six 610 mm torpedo tubes, eight 100 mm anti-air guns, and twenty four 25 mm anti-air guns so if she or any of her sister ships came across an enemy convoy, she will destroy it with relative ease. Rossiya built twenty five of these speedy cruisers.

I have reworked the Arachne-class cruiser, she now has one less turret and her remaining turrets have one gun less. Her torpedo tubes have been reduced and her small caliber anti-air guns have had one their barrels removed.

[Krakatoa]

I applaud the work you are doing, the way you are integrating the US (Hull, Guns) and Japanese (Superstructure, AA) is very well done.

It is after that point that your problems start. You are telling us that your ships have this much armour, that much speed, and main guns. The problem we have is that we know that the amounts of those items will just not fit together on the ship you have put together.

Trying to use diesels on a cruiser to produce 37 knots will not work in 1935/36. If you look at the Graf Spee that was commissioned in 1936, the maximum speed it could make was 29 knots on 54,000bhp of diesel power. Graf Spee is 80 feet shorter than your ship, but the same breadth. Do not forget that the Germans had the best diesel engines at that time. So even if you could double the amount of diesel power in that extra 80 feet you would only have 108,000bhp available (you would need more space). The US hull you have used required 120,000shp to make 33 knots. To make that hull go 37 knots with the armour and armament you have would be approximately 200,000shp. There is not enough space on your ship for that amount of propulsion systems. If you want to use diesels for their long range ability then you are going to have to accept the maximum speed you could reach was 31-32 knots.

The breadth and size of the ship you have, you could have 4x4 6" turrets, that was the originally proposed armament on HMS Belfast and Belfast is smaller than your ship.

You are still showing 4 torpedo spots on your ship so your torpedo armament is going to be in groups of 4-8-12-16.

With the Alternative Universe you are in, you have to decide whether the Washington and London Naval Treaties are going to be in force or not. Those treaties set very precise limits on shipping, not just the size of the ships but how much tonnage of each class could be built. The Royal Navy had a limit of 150,000 tons that it could have as cruiser sized vessels. Your ship will be about 15,000 tons (or more) so if you build 25 of them that is 375,000 tons.

No country has all of the resources it needs to build and run ships (the exception may be the British Empire because of the different areas around the world they control). So each country is vulnerable to having sanctions placed against it to stop it being able to produce or run its armed forces. If you try to build the amount of ships you are trying to tell us about, countries like the US and UK would intervene to keep you small. If you go against them they will out produce you and beat you.

Before you decide on what you are going to have on each of your ships you need to read up on the ships that you are using the parts from to see if you can do what you want. Wiki is invaluable for that sort of information, and its free. Navweaps is also another great resource for the different types of guns that you want to use.

You are close with what you are doing, you just have to lower your expectations of what your ships can do to more realistic levels.

The Arachne class cruiser with treaties could not be built during the 1930's. It is more likely to have been a war built class during the mid 1940's.

Keep going with your drawings and learn from the information people in SB tell you about your drawings. You will get better all the time.

[JSB]

There was a reason for the name 'tinclads' you cant build (at least early on without sacrificing something important, range/belt/torpedoes) a good Cruiser (CA or big CL) under 10,000.

Historically you have a number of options, (assuming you are building pre war in the treaty environment ?)

1) first decide if you really want a 10,000t 'light' Cruiser (IMO a product of the LNT as CA are more limited) if not just go for something like the very small design with less guns such as the RN Arethusa class.

2) If you want a 10,000t CL then how limited by treaty's are you ? Ie can you politically cheat ?

If yes then you have the options of,
- lots of guns on something flimsy the Mogami-class
- If you can totally ignore weight then go for a well armoured design such as Admiral Hipper-class

If no then build a Build it with thin belt and drop the torpedoes etc (and probably high cost/tech weight saving) - Brooklyn class or drop guns - Town class.

(As for you design I think it will be comfortably over 10,000t due to the engines and lack of compromises, so is that ok with your treaty/political position ? its up to you )

But I do think a navy that had BBs in WW1, it will have its own doctrine and design teams so I would star designing your own weapons etc.

JSB