Charwhick's Musings

[Shipright]

Actually it doesn't because jamming at all let alone powerful enough to overwhelm any 1st rate defensive radar system (which something its size could not possibly do) would require an active signal any EM sensor would pick out instantly. Its really no different than broadcasting a active seeker signal.

Electronic jamming works by overwhelming a reciever with a specific signal. This would keep the radar itself from detecting anything else, but unless you really over do it the radar will at the very least be able to tell where the jamming signal itself is coming from. If that fails as previously mentioned SLQ-32 and the like will interpret it as just a really strong EM signature from direction X so they will still know its coming. Thats why jamming is done by a third party platform seperate from the missile trucks in strke packages.

The NSM is really just an evolutionary improvement of ther Penguin/Harpoon families of missiles. It has some increased target recognition capability which we should expect given the everday improvements in optics and computing since those missiles were developled. It looks like instead of seeing "blog x" it can see "rough sillohette X" which it can compare against stored images. This will only works if you know exactly what platform you are shooting at and there is no white shipping (or red vessels its not targeted against) so it has most of the same handicaps as the Harpoon. Its simply a limitation or real world technology, people are used to magic sci-fi sensors where in reality raw RCS data still requires human interpretation if it falls outside a very narrow system doctrine statement. A fire and forget weapon is going to be limited in this regard for obvious reasons. Anways I was manly responding in regards to the "go through a bridge window" or "down a stack" comments.

I have found no documentation regarding integrated jamming on the NSM. I see no antennas for it on the missile itself. Is there any documentation of this?

[heuhen]

You will never find any documentation on that either. Since that is something that are not posted on the web. But Kongsberg mentioned it during a TV-program here in Norway where they are talking about future technology, in that TV-program most of the time they was talking about new tech. from USA, but the NSM was just mentioned in a short video on that show. You see here in Norway we don't do that extreme propaganda like in USA or Russia, her in Norway if there is something to mention, it just get mentioned in a short video and that's it.

Spokesman from Kongsberg say NSM have Jamming equipment. But I can also say that what type of jamming equipment and how it works on the NSM is top-secret. Kongsberg said it that they can revile some of the most obvious tech on them, but they are not allowed to specifies what type of Jamming equipment.

For the silhouette talk. well NSM computer have complete silhouette of any ship. so when it fly along it notice and map out where all commercial ship are but also where military ships are. The NSM doesn't need any confirmation like harpoon or penguin, in fact NSM take that fire and forget, to an different level. The NSM have the ability and have shown it on several test that it just fly by any non-target and attack one of the assigned targets in that area, in some test it was even send in to an area without any target assigned, but it still managed to find the most important target, and hit it where it hurt most for the ship.

to compare NSM with penguin and Harpoon, is like comparing Lada to a Bugatti...


I know it sounds magic, but it also just happens that Kongsberg opened the future tech. box, and made it work. blowing some limitations that we ""amateurs"" didn't know about. And I bet that since Kongsberg made the Yard stick, USA and LRAM have to make it even better... perhaps the explain why it goes so slow with making that LRAM, and US are testing the NSM for finding out new things to do for improving the technology. The NSM and the LRAM was/are designed to defeat any radars on today's marked, of course they are not perfect. for example when the Norwegian frigate fired the first NSM, the AEGIS radar didn't manage to detect the missile, they had to use an tracker on it, just to manage to see the missile.



But perhaps everything is an propaganda like that, Russian radars are so good, and Russia have world best AAW system, or no-one can defeat a aircraft carrier fleet (tell that to an Ula class submarine, it have done it twice now!), or the Brahmos is so fast no-one can shoot it down. then what about the almost self-thinking system on the NSM or LRAM... joke that to. oh wait what if it all is top secret.


Found this one, doesn't mention jamming, but that is a hush hush thing, you can mention it but not explain it.... But in the text it tells about that you can tell the NSM to target a specific vessel or don't attack these couple of ships or just send it in to an area without no target, the missile will find target by it self and...

apparently in the text they say that JSM can fit in to a Mk-41 VLS... that's interesting.
http://www.defensenews.com/article/2014 ... ms-Pacific

[Charwhick]

As far as speed goes, it's not so much "so fast you can't shoot one down", the problem defending against them is "so fast they can overwhelm you". Shooting down 8 subsonic missiles that take a couple minutes to go from horizon to impact isn't difficult. If each of those missiles only takes 30 seconds from horizon to impact (mach 3ish) you'll have your work cut out for you. Modern AESA and PESA systems like Aegis definitely help there, but can you launch 16 (2 missiles per target) ESSM from a VLS in 10 seconds (giving time of flight for both missiles, targeting time, etc)?

That's why I think a large number of cheap, fast missiles are more likely to defeat close-in defenses than slower stealthy missiles or a smaller number of advanced but expensive missiles. The point is lost if they're slow though, saturation needs to be lightning fast to work against modern systems.

[acelanceloet]

FYI, just to add to to the discussion: a 8 cell Mk 41 module can fire one missile every second. (not certain how this goes with ESSM but let's keep it at the 1/sec)
this means, a burke with 6 and 12 modules (18 total) can fire 18 missiles max per second. while this might be a bit slower in reality when talking about such large numbers (shooting the battery dry becomes a problem real fast then) but the number fired from the VLS is not going to be the highest factor, but the guidance of these missiles will be.

[Thiel]

That's why I think a large number of cheap, fast missiles are more likely to defeat close-in defenses than slower stealthy missiles or a smaller number of advanced but expensive missiles. The point is lost if they're slow though, saturation needs to be lightning fast to work against modern systems.

Problem is that a fast missile with sufficient range to reach long range targets, with sufficient sensors to resist countermeasures are, by their very nature, going to be big and expensive.

[heuhen]

and bigger and more expensive a ship is, thus more self-defense system. (there is an quote somewhere in that text...)

[Shipright]

FYI, just to add to to the discussion: a 8 cell Mk 41 module can fire one missile every second. (not certain how this goes with ESSM but let's keep it at the 1/sec)
this means, a burke with 6 and 12 modules (18 total) can fire 18 missiles max per second. while this might be a bit slower in reality when talking about such large numbers (shooting the battery dry becomes a problem real fast then) but the number fired from the VLS is not going to be the highest factor, but the guidance of these missiles will be.

It might be able to fire them that fast but that's not the same thing as having guidance resources to service all of them.

Also I am pretty sure huehue is on the builders payroll

[heuhen]

It might be able to fire them that fast but that's not the same thing as having guidance resources to service all of them.

Also I am pretty sure huehue is on the builders payroll

you do love writing my name wrong.

nah I'm not on builder payroll. But I have an step-dad, that was Lieutenant commander in the Navy his specialty in the Navy is all Radar and electronics, he worked on the frigate project from day one. His task was all radars and sensors on these frigates. and just to say it, these frigates have (as he said) 60-70% of all sensors finish installed at launch of these ships. He know every electronic parts on those ships, specially on those missiles, since he have to know what he can use for getting best performance.

It's quit funny when you travel with him, last we travel to USA we had to send in some papers, while I just got to or three standard documents to fill... well he literally got a book to fill....