Thanks guys, for your kind remarks. They are very much appreciated.
Thanks also to 'eltf177' for 'Springsharping' the design. I must admit I was a little surprised to see 'Diomedes' had turned out much lighter than I had expected. The freeboard is also lower. I had it at 28.5' at the bow, 24' amidships and 16' aft. I was also hoping for greater fuel capacity - somewhere around 2300 tons. Most puzzling though, is the length of the armour belt - S/S has it 80' longer than on the drawing. Why it has to extend so far fore and aft of the main magazines I have no idea - unless S/S has moved the main turrets to achieve more space for the machinery???
That's one of the things SS does as soon as you include bulkheads(forces you to have a much longer armour belt, it tends to be a real bother with ships in the cruiser range). I don't know why, you just have to roll with it really.
A very pretty drawing and interesting design though. I'd be willing to loose a knot to increase armour, but that's up to personal design philosophy(I prefer my ships slightly slower, if it makes them harder to sink ).
BCRenown wrote:Thanks guys, for your kind remarks. They are very much appreciated.
Thanks also to 'eltf177' for 'Springsharping' the design. I must admit I was a little surprised to see 'Diomedes' had turned out much lighter than I had expected. The freeboard is also lower. I had it at 28.5' at the bow, 24' amidships and 16' aft. I was also hoping for greater fuel capacity - somewhere around 2300 tons. Most puzzling though, is the length of the armour belt - S/S has it 80' longer than on the drawing. Why it has to extend so far fore and aft of the main magazines I have no idea - unless S/S has moved the main turrets to achieve more space for the machinery???
Thanks again guys. Y'all are so
I'll redo her with your freeboard (I was guesstimating it). I'll also increase bunkerage, I wasn't sure what sort of range Greece would need. Is the laydown date ok?
KHT wrote:That's one of the things SS does as soon as you include bulkheads(forces you to have a much longer armour belt, it tends to be a real bother with ships in the cruiser range). I don't know why, you just have to roll with it really.
A very pretty drawing and interesting design though. I'd be willing to loose a knot to increase armour, but that's up to personal design philosophy(I prefer my ships slightly slower, if it makes them harder to sink ).
I'll also redo her without the TDS, that will help shorten the belt and save some weight. In fact, I'll probably have to take it out to get your range without displacement getting out of hand.
I also agree, losing some speed to increase armor would not be a bad thing. And less speed means less machinery which may mean the TDS can be kept. As I said, any ship this large needs one IMHO and I try to factor one in...
Thanks for your comments. While I have never used S/S, I understand it works best for ship designs of the early dreadnought era and begins to develop quirks when used for more modern, faster designs. At least that is what I've been told.
eltf177,
Thanks for your keen interest also. The laydown date is fine. However, I only used Greece because that was Navarchos' concept. I envision the 'Diomedes' design to have more far reaching use - hunting surface raiders in the Atlantic, operating against IJN cruisers in the Dutch East Indies and beyond. If 'Diomedes' is going to be an effective 'cruiser killer' she's going to need a speed of 33 knots, to be reasonably protected against 8" gunfire and to have high endurance and good seakeeping qualities. I agree a suitable TDS would be nice for a ship of this size but may I refer you to the USS Alaska, a much larger ship design with a minimal TDS?
I'd be very appreciative if you gave her another go in S/S. And thanks again for all you have done.
I enjoy doing this, it's a lot of fun. Here's the first revision: the freeboard is adjusted to your numbers and range increased...
Diomedes Revision A, Greek Light Battlecruiser laid down 1938
Displacement:
14,867 t light; 15,447 t standard; 16,765 t normal; 17,819 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
673.37 ft / 660.00 ft x 72.00 ft x 24.50 ft (normal load)
205.24 m / 201.17 m x 21.95 m x 7.47 m
Armament:
6 - 10.00" / 254 mm guns (3x2 guns), 500.00lbs / 226.80kg shells, 1938 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 4.53" / 115 mm guns (2x2 guns), 46.48lbs / 21.08kg shells, 1938 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 4.53" / 115 mm guns (2x2 guns), 46.48lbs / 21.08kg shells, 1938 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
24 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns (12x2 guns), 1.69lbs / 0.77kg shells, 1938 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
12 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1938 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 10 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,415 lbs / 1,549 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 125
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 550.00 ft / 167.64 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 128 % of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.00" / 25 mm 550.00 ft / 167.64 m 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 3.00" / 76 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
4th: 0.75" / 19 mm - -
5th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 127,507 shp / 95,120 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,372 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
20,593 lbs / 9,341 Kg = 41.2 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 2.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 15.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.46
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.504
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.17 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.69 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.50 ft / 8.69 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Mid (50 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 20.36 ft / 6.21 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 124.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 161.9 %
Waterplane Area: 31,777 Square feet or 2,952 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 127 lbs/sq ft or 622 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.27
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Miscellaneous weight includes 2 beam-mounted catapults amidships plus a centerline crane for 2 floatplanes (no hanger).
**************
Here's the second revision; new freeboard and range but the TDS is removed. This allows a thicker main belt and end belts; thicker CT armor, thicker turret armor and thicker barbettes. But seakeeping tanked and draft had to be increased to get it back up...
Diomedes Revision B, Greek Light Battlecruiser laid down 1938
Displacement:
14,876 t light; 15,456 t standard; 16,774 t normal; 17,828 t full load
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
673.37 ft / 660.00 ft x 72.00 ft x 25.90 ft (normal load)
205.24 m / 201.17 m x 21.95 m x 7.89 m
Armament:
6 - 10.00" / 254 mm guns (3x2 guns), 500.00lbs / 226.80kg shells, 1938 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 4.53" / 115 mm guns (2x2 guns), 46.48lbs / 21.08kg shells, 1938 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 4.53" / 115 mm guns (2x2 guns), 46.48lbs / 21.08kg shells, 1938 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
24 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns (12x2 guns), 1.69lbs / 0.77kg shells, 1938 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
12 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1938 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 10 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,415 lbs / 1,549 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 125
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 200.00 ft / 60.96 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
60.00 ft / 18.29 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 93 % of normal length
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
4th: 0.75" / 19 mm - -
5th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 6.00" / 152 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 125,883 shp / 93,909 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,371 tons
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
19,977 lbs / 9,061 Kg = 40.0 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.49
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.477
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.17 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.69 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.50 ft / 8.69 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Mid (50 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 20.36 ft / 6.21 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 158.1 %
Waterplane Area: 31,016 Square feet or 2,881 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 130 lbs/sq ft or 634 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.34
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Miscellaneous weight includes 2 beam-mounted catapults amidships plus a centerline crane for 2 floatplanes (no hanger).
Sorry for my late reply. Life does take its crazy turns once in awhile. I really appreciate your re-simming the 'Diomedes' design. Of course I'll take the first version with the 6" belt and the TDS and I have adjusted my ships' data to reflect that of the sim (see page 1). Since this pocket battlecruiser was designed to fight cruisers, a 6" belt ought to be adequate. The TDS will provide a greater degree of survivability against torpedo attack than an 8" belt - in a war where air and submarine launched torpedoes will be a greater threat than naval gunfire.
Thanks again my friend.
(perhaps there's an incomplete hull lying around, waiting to be converted to a light aircraft carrier???)
Monty- The light BC was alwys one of my favorite subjects, and this is a very interesting one - and of course very well done. If this a French design built in a Brit yard?
).