It can be argued actually that if the U.S. had continued to bomb the hell out of North Vietnam it could have been won as inhumane as it sounds.
IIRC this thread talks about it http://www.tboverse.us/HPCAFORUM/phpBB3 ... =6&t=13286
Though as you said securing South Vietnams independence is probably the only thing that can be won.
What could have been?
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Re: What could have been?
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Zealandia AU
John Company AU
References and feedback is always welcome!
Re: What could have been?
This thread talks about the US election in 2008: http://www.subspace-comms.net/index.php?topic=2512.0
I'm not using it as a reference in a discussion about the topic though. \:
Anyway, the main thing America "wins" in my "AU" is perpetual insurgent war, which is the better alternative to genocide under communism. Though by the 1980's the NLF has died down into a weird quasi-civil group like the MNLF. Technically the Viet Nam War ends in 1973, since the sustained use by American paratroopers of atomic weapons on the PAVN is enough to deter them from further large scale offensives (but the Easter Offensive still goes on for like 8 months), but the Paris Accords aren't ratified by the US Congress until mid-1976, which officially marks the end of the war in Gallaverse.
Also, because South Vietnam never falls and MACV never goes away, the Khmer Rouge exists only briefly before a combined American-ARVN liberation force restores CRUNK (Confédération Royal d'Union Nationale du Kampuchéa) to power and Sihanouk returns to Phnom Penh in 1975 after taking refuge in Saigon. The Cambodian Civil War ends in disaster for both the Republic and the Reds, and Kingdom of Cambodia is a strong US ally alongside South Vietnam and the Republic of Korea.
I'm not using it as a reference in a discussion about the topic though. \:
Anyway, the main thing America "wins" in my "AU" is perpetual insurgent war, which is the better alternative to genocide under communism. Though by the 1980's the NLF has died down into a weird quasi-civil group like the MNLF. Technically the Viet Nam War ends in 1973, since the sustained use by American paratroopers of atomic weapons on the PAVN is enough to deter them from further large scale offensives (but the Easter Offensive still goes on for like 8 months), but the Paris Accords aren't ratified by the US Congress until mid-1976, which officially marks the end of the war in Gallaverse.
Also, because South Vietnam never falls and MACV never goes away, the Khmer Rouge exists only briefly before a combined American-ARVN liberation force restores CRUNK (Confédération Royal d'Union Nationale du Kampuchéa) to power and Sihanouk returns to Phnom Penh in 1975 after taking refuge in Saigon. The Cambodian Civil War ends in disaster for both the Republic and the Reds, and Kingdom of Cambodia is a strong US ally alongside South Vietnam and the Republic of Korea.
The Chinese people are not to be cowed by U.S. atomic blackmail. Our country has a population of 600 million and an area of 9.6 [million sq. km]. The United States cannot annihilate the Chinese nation with its small stack of atom bombs. Even if the U.S. atom bombs were so powerful that, when dropped on China, they would make a hole right through the earth, or even blow it up, that would hardly mean anything to the universe as a whole, though it might be a major event for the solar system.
Re: What could have been?
In real life, the MNLF is still alive and kicking as of 2013, in the recent Zamboanga City crisis, wherein the MNLF sent a large contigent of its soldiers to Zamboanga City to raise their flag at the city hall and declare independence from the Philippines as the Bangsamoro Republik. The crisis ended with the Philippine forces winning, although the MNLF leader involved in the crisis is still at large.
Re: What could have been?
Guys, as a former member of both communities (one I left by choice, the other I was banned from), you need to take what is said both places with sufficient amounts of salt. Both communities have ideological blinders that have resulted in Overton window shifts (in opposite directions). While I would trust HPCA to get technical details of military hardware and tactics/strategy/operations correct, there can be some 'unreliable narrators' while most of the people on SCN just don't have the background in the first place.
𝐌𝐀𝐓𝐇𝐍𝐄𝐓- 𝑻𝒐 𝑪𝒐𝒈𝒊𝒕𝒂𝒕𝒆 𝒂𝒏𝒅 𝒕𝒐 𝑺𝒐𝒍𝒗𝒆
Re: What could have been?
As a follower of HPCA but a non member I can attest to that, I was just using their thread as an example on how it can be argued that Vietnam was "winnable"
Projects:
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Zealandia AU
John Company AU
References and feedback is always welcome!
Re: What could have been?
I don't think bombing Viet Nam anymore would have helped, considering the intensity of Linebacker, Rolling Thunder, and other Viet Nam air operations was greater than that of the USAAC during WW2.Trojan wrote:As a follower of HPCA but a non member I can attest to that, I was just using their thread as an example on how it can be argued that Vietnam was "winnable"
The Chinese people are not to be cowed by U.S. atomic blackmail. Our country has a population of 600 million and an area of 9.6 [million sq. km]. The United States cannot annihilate the Chinese nation with its small stack of atom bombs. Even if the U.S. atom bombs were so powerful that, when dropped on China, they would make a hole right through the earth, or even blow it up, that would hardly mean anything to the universe as a whole, though it might be a major event for the solar system.
Re: What could have been?
North Vietnam was on the verge of peace during each of those operations and admit as much today. We never pushed it that little bit more. Basicky NV was willing to fight in SV until it was a moonscape as they didn't really care about the people there but rather their ideological bent (not unlike some in the US), when we started to attack NV proper the communist leadership cared.
Re: What could have been?
Thank you for restating exactly what I said in so many words.Shipright wrote:North Vietnam was on the verge of peace during each of those operations and admit as much today. We never pushed it that little bit more. Basicky NV was willing to fight in SV until it was a moonscape as they didn't really care about the people there but rather their ideological bent (not unlike some in the US), when we started to attack NV proper the communist leadership cared.
The Chinese people are not to be cowed by U.S. atomic blackmail. Our country has a population of 600 million and an area of 9.6 [million sq. km]. The United States cannot annihilate the Chinese nation with its small stack of atom bombs. Even if the U.S. atom bombs were so powerful that, when dropped on China, they would make a hole right through the earth, or even blow it up, that would hardly mean anything to the universe as a whole, though it might be a major event for the solar system.
Re: What could have been?
Ok I'm sorry if I'm just being ignorant but I don't really see how what Shipright said is the restating your words. Unless I'm mistaken you were disagreeing with my post while he was agreeing with it. Maybe I'm just really tired from finals and I'm missing something obvious, which would make sense, but I'm a bit confused. Can you expand Kattsun?
Projects:
Zealandia AU
John Company AU
References and feedback is always welcome!
Zealandia AU
John Company AU
References and feedback is always welcome!
Re: What could have been?
He said the best thing possible was Korea, where North Vietnam sues for peace and accepts the existence of South Vietnam.Trojan wrote:Ok I'm sorry if I'm just being ignorant but I don't really see how what Shipright said is the restating your words. Unless I'm mistaken you were disagreeing with my post while he was agreeing with it. Maybe I'm just really tired from finals and I'm missing something obvious, which would make sense, but I'm a bit confused. Can you expand Kattsun?
This isn't victory.
The Chinese people are not to be cowed by U.S. atomic blackmail. Our country has a population of 600 million and an area of 9.6 [million sq. km]. The United States cannot annihilate the Chinese nation with its small stack of atom bombs. Even if the U.S. atom bombs were so powerful that, when dropped on China, they would make a hole right through the earth, or even blow it up, that would hardly mean anything to the universe as a whole, though it might be a major event for the solar system.